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Poaching Wars

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  whitestarling on Thu May 23, 2013 4:08 pm

ROFL That just goes to show the idea of Rhino medicine is a load of

WS lol!

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  littlewid on Thu May 23, 2013 10:41 pm

I read through this post earlier and it is all rater upsetting and maddening and I agree with really what both WS and Chris says and I also agree with Safariman, the Royals probably are careful on what they say as they do hunt and this could be turned around on them.

What is the answer, I wished I had one but I agree with WS that CITES really do not do much at all and it is the other organisations that could possibly make a difference.

What is going to get through to these people, the big man at the top is earning a fortune and he will continue to do so unless there is some bolt from the blue that can be magiced up to put a stop to it and the people who believe that Rhino horn is the cure all and brings great wealth stop believing it.

How can this be done, I have no answers except legalise Chris's joke ( that was good by the way Chris cheers )

A crazy thought but why don't they prove science to them and run a head to head study. Get two groups of people, same age in each group (can be a mixture of ages as long as both groups are equal), there must be an equal number of healthy people and sick people with the same illnesses and same age groups, get them to live in equal conditions and eat and drink the same food, work the same hours and study the same hours and sleep the same hours and they have to live in the same area, thats important. They have to be equal in each and every way except that one group has to be given Rhino horn to bring them wealth and Rhino horn to cure sickness/disease and increase fertility etc, the other group which would actually be the controlled group as they would be given medicine to treat sickness/disease ( a head to head study is really like for like but as they believe Rhino horn is so potent they would believe it was a head to head study and that they had the better manufactured medicine, whereas really it's a controlled study with real medicine and a placebo, the Rhino horn being the placebo). What would be proved to them is that the Rhino horn group actually got sicker whilst the controlled group would get better, neither group would be wealthier, except one group in health and neither group would achieve a better status, except the controlled group again in health.
Maybe this kind of study/proof would have some bearing on them changing their minds about what Rhino horn actually does or doesn't do for them.
May sound weird and undoable but a lot of talking isn't doing much to save the Rhino at the moment.

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  Laikipia on Fri May 24, 2013 8:27 am

Chris - good one!

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  whitestarling on Fri May 24, 2013 10:26 pm

That seems a good idea to me LW, especialy if it could be done in Countries like China, and Vietnam especilay if it was given full publicity by their Governments. It's the sort of fresh ideas the Worlds Wildlife need
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Important development in the rhino wars

Post  Chris-AWD on Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:09 pm

A good development on this issue today is a plan is to allow South African game wardens to pursue Mozambicans who kill rhinos in the Kruger National Park.

As you all probably know up to 90% of rhino poachers are from Mozambique. The biggest problem we had is that in Mozambique poaching is not a crime.

We have stories about poachers running across the border and firing victory shots and then sit in the sight of the ranger and have a smoke because the ranger could not cross the border.

In addition Mozambique simply ignored all our efforts to extradite the poachers but I think what did get their attention is that the South African government indicated that they intended re-erecting the 80km fence between the Kruger and Mozambique that was removed to create a transfrontier "peace park"

This meant that they stood to lose up to R13-million in donor money to maintaining the peace park.

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  Laikipia on Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:41 pm

That sounds interesting Chris. Keep us updated please. I had no idea that poaching was not a crime in Mozambique.

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  littlewid on Fri Aug 02, 2013 10:09 pm

I had no idea either that poaching was not illegal in mozambique either. Lets hope this news causes a decline in poaching now they can be gone after. If the Rhino could speak I bet they would be very happy.
Thanks for posting this Chris.

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  whitestarling on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:34 am

Thanks for that news Chris, lets hope something good comes of it. I did'nt know either that it was not crime in Mozambique, do you know of its illegal to export animals parts like Rhino Horn, and Elephant tusks there ?.
In the mean time I've found this Petition to make Rhino Poaching a Felony in Mozambique

Make Rhino Poaching a Felony in Mozambique
By Elizabeth Koonce

Target: Mozambique Government

Goal: Increase the crime of rhinoceros poaching in Mozambique from a misdemeanor to a felony.

There are less than 5,000 rhinoceros left in Africa as of 2013. The brutal slaughter of rhinos for their valuable horns has spiraled out of control, with more than 500 rhinos killed in 2012 alone. These horns, believed to be an aphrodisiac in some Asian cultures, is actually made of keratin; the same material that makes up our fingernails. Now, with the Western Black Rhino declared extinct, and its close relatives teetering on the cusp of destruction, action must be taken.

A large number of the poachers and dealers of horns are based in Mozambique, which has limited punishments for this illegal act, classifying it as a simple misdemeanor. Mozambique borders on the Kruger National Park, one of the largest game reserves in Africa, a sanctuary that the remaining rhinos call home. Unfortunately, poachers from Mozambique frequently trek into the reserve to find their quarry- and receive minimum punishment for their crimes. The poachers cross the border with semi-automatic weapons, endangering not only this remarkable species, but dedicated game rangers as well. The illegal trade of rhino horn in Mozambique is prosperous, and many desperate individuals are willing to go to great lengths to profit. Please urge the Mozambique government to increase the crime of illegal rhinoceros poaching and the trade of rhinoceros horn from a misdemeanor to a felony (class 5).

Sign the Petition:  
http://forcechange.com/69254/make-rhino-poaching-a-felony-in-mozambique/

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  Laikipia on Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:43 am

Thanks for the link WS. Signed and shared on Twitter.

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  Chris-AWD on Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:45 am

I meant to say that it was a misdemeanor and not a major crime - like it is South Africa.

All the analysts in our countries currently agree 90% of our problem currently relates to Mozambique.

The solutions require politicians to resolve it requiring long and painful processes.

It seems we can possibly now move forward on this issue.

Here is the latest in our media:

http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2013/08/02/end-of-poachers-safe-haven


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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  littlewid on Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:18 pm

Chris, it would be such a step forward if this was increased from a misdemeanor to a felony, I so hope this happens. Why on earth do they think the equivalent of crushed fingernails is an aphrodisiac.......it's so beyond me.

Thanks for the link WS, I have signed it.

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  whitestarling on Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:23 pm

Thanks Chris, but for somr reason that link keeps freezing my screen, I've tried it 2 or 3 times. As you say along progress for the negotiations, but an even more painfull one for the Animals.
I agree LW makes you Mad  in this day, and age
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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  Laikipia on Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:47 pm

Same here WS. I can get the link to open but can't scroll down as it freezes.

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  Laikipia on Fri Aug 09, 2013 10:37 am

More shocking news. Worth reading the article and watching the clip, so tragic that she lost her unborn calf but thankfully both Bonnie and Clyde have survived.

Miraculous survival of two white rhinos called Bonnie and Clyde after their horns were cut off by poachers using a battery powered hacksaw



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2386694/Miraculous-survival-white-rhinos-called-Bonnie-Clyde-horns-cut-poachers-using-battery-powered-hacksaw.html

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  whitestarling on Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:52 pm

What a Face Going to have to read that later Lai my teas nearly ready

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  whitestarling on Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:24 am

Sorry Lai just got back to this. That was awfull it makes me so Mad Mad Mad that excuses for human beings can do things like this As you say so sad that the unborn calf was lost, but thankfully Bonnie, and Clyde survived their ordeal.

Perhaps this statement will have some effect on the future of the Rhino

Status Update
By Jean T H Berdou
Another massive breakthrough in counter poaching of our rhino...Mozambique and South Africa agree at ministerial level to the right of hot pursuit. Our rangers and armed forces, shall have the right to pursue poachers and operate with Mozambican forces into Mozambique in area no longer limited to the trans frontier park. We shall pursue the poachers relentlessly and hunt them down. No longer any safe havens only the fierce determination of our nation to eradicate poaching. ~ V

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  Laikipia on Mon Sep 02, 2013 1:39 pm

Thanks for that update WS and let's hope you are right.

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  Chris-AWD on Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:05 am

This thread has gone a bit quite. Our rhino poaching numbers totaled 1004 last year compared to 668 in 2012 and 448 in 2011.

Are you aware that there is an important wildlife trade conference in London this week?

London wildlife traffic event hosted by your Prime minister

Probably worth keeping an ear on the ground to find out if anything fruitful comes from it.

One encouraging thing recently was that a rhino poaching kingpin was successfully linked to the deaths of two rhino in the Kruger National Park and for the police to round up the poaching syndicate of South Africans, Chinese and Vietnamese he allegedly ran. The gang members are now on trial.

Their fate was sealed by the work of South Africa's dedicated rhino DNA testing laboratory. The poachers can now be linked back to the carcass through the DNA index and more easily prosecuted .

Dr Rod Potter, is a wildlife crime scene investigator, who will speak in London about the importance of science in the anti-poaching fight.

If you guys see something interesting in the local British press - please post so that we maybe can discuss.

Regards,

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  littlewid on Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:34 pm

Hi Chris

Thanks for reopening this post. It has gone very quiet and I missed the bonnie and Clyde post from Lai. I have just read it and it's incredible they both survived such a potent drug and vicious attack. It is truly upsetting that Bonnie lost her 4 month old calf and that Clyde has been left partially blind with organ damage, how they survived that drug is just a miracle. It is worrying that the drug may be used for future poaching and I doubt if many animals will be as lucky as Bonnie and Clyde, if you can call their survival lucky, after all Bonnie has lost a calf and will she ever be able to breed again and Clyde has partial eyesight and organ damage, I don't call either of those lucky.

Yes I had heard about the conference and that Prince Charles and Prince William were going to speak. There has been a bit in the press here about them speaking out on poaching when William is off to Spain to shoot Wild Boar and Stags......not really the image of a conservationist really, so it has rattled a few people here.

That's a sad increase in the amount of Rhino you have lost but brilliant news that the Rhino Poaching Kingpin was linked to two deaths and the gang are now on trial. It will be interesting to hear what the outcome of that trial is Chris.

If I come across anything in the press related to the London Conference I will post it for you on here and likewise if you hear anything about the outcome of the gang maybe you could post it here for us too.

Good to hear from you Chris.

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  whitestarling on Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:29 pm

Thanks for the information on the paoching king pin Chris, hopefully when him, and his gang are bprought to trila the senetences will reflect the determination of South Africa to deal with this ever increasing problem, although taking into account the money that can be made fron Rhino Horn it will proberbly only have a limited effect, on those criminal gangs who are determined to make money from the slaughter of these creatures. At least it's proving that the DNA programe the South African Govrnment has put in place works, and can be an effective tool in finding, and prosecuting paochers. There does seem to be  to me more awareness in the news these days of the poaching problems in Africa, as was also highlighted by Princes Charles, and William, although I agrre that Williams hunting trip was really a major gaffe, and has diluted the message sadly becuase of the adverse publicity it has caused, although I am pragmatic enough to accept that there are times when hunting will occure, and is acceptable.
With reference to the conference you mentioned I will also keep an eye out for any news, it starts tomorrow. Tere is the opportunity to watch a live stream of the conference, and what is being said on the following link, although we might all be busy with work, and other things. The conference times are from 9-00am to 6-00pm on the 11th, and 12th

http://sites.zsl.org/iwtconf/
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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  littlewid on Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:08 pm

This is the news that was in todays Daily Mail. An interesting article and also three good video clips. There is also some powerful pictures of the Rhino not as stunning animals but depicted in the tools that kill them.

William speaks very passionately but with true force about the seriousness of the situation, as does Prince Charles. Jane Goodall also comments on Prince Williams hunting trip and agrees it was unfortunate timing but it mustn't detract from the good he can do for the cause of stopping poaching.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2558409/Follow-money-Prince-Charles-tells-world-leaders-target-illegal-profits-organised-gangs-involved-animal-poaching.html

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  whitestarling on Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:58 am

Thanks LW for the link. I've always said that the only way forward really is to target the money side of poaching, you can catch the actual poachers on the ground, but there are always more to replace them just like drug runners on the streets, although this comes at a devastating loss in Rangers lives 1,000 in 12 months, and two killed everyday, that really is shocking. It really is time after so much talking, and so many meetings of leaders from all over the world , that the talking, and meetings stopped, and action was taken on a world wide basis. Hopefully the two Princes will bring that action closer with what they are doing. I agree it was unfortunate the timing of Williams hunting trip, how ever I dont have a problem with it when it's sustained, run properly, and benifits other widlife, and the habitat,and eco system where it happens. Hunting is in Mans DNA, and will always be so, thats something that will never change, although it's not something I would or could do, I can understand it,  and it should'nt detract from the message he is trying to put over. They are all do as much as they can publicity wise, and with Wild Aid to get the message out there to the World that action needs to be taken now, lets all hope for the sake of the endangered species of our Planet they succeed. It would be interesting to know what people think who live in Africa

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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  Chris-AWD on Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:36 pm

Hopefully this conference looks at the three levels of tackling this problem:

Reducing demand

The importance of these high profile people helps to highlight the fact there would be no ivory trade without demand, and raising awareness amongst consumers is key to end the slaughter.  Like we have said around here before many of the consumers in Asia are unaware that the ivory they are buying might be illegal, with some of them not even aware that it comes from an elephant (that one still puzzles me)

I don’t follow the royals but apparently the Duke has given up his RAF career, and is deciding on a “public service role” to fill his time.  Maybe his passion for protecting endangered species can be one of his biggest causes over the next few years.

The next area lies is with developing alternative livelihoods for communities around the wildlife areas to stop people turning to poaching which is probably outside the scope of the conference.

The area that frustrates me the most is Strengthening law enforcement

I think the biggest role of this type of conference lies with the fact that despite arresting traffickers and seizing the wildlife parts, the law enforcers have failed to arrest or convict the criminal masterminds wreaking this havoc. So hopefully the conference achieves cooperation in building systems to build evidence against the main culprits who lead the smuggling syndicates but are not getting their hands dirty.

I am not sure which meeting Prince Charles is referring to next month, where he will be involved with a meeting to encourage governments, banks, accounting firms, security agencies and others to make greater use of financial tools to tackle organized crime engaged in the illegal wildlife trade.

As a chartered accountant I am interested in those areas - do any of you know what meeting they are referring to?


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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  littlewid on Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:34 am

Hi Chris

Sorry I'm in a bit of a rush this morning so will come back on this a bit later. However, in answer to your question/statement that maybe Prince William can spend more of his time now he has left his RAF career with devoting it to his passion for endangered wildlife, he has done just that. He has set up United For Wildlife, it incorporates 7 conservation organisations and Prince William is heavily involved and this is where a lot of his time will be spent.
Here is a little article about it that was posted in our Conservation thread.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/prince-william/10304841/Duke-of-Cambridge-and-David-Beckham-join-forces-to-fight-illegal-wildlife-trade.html


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Re: Poaching Wars

Post  whitestarling on Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:15 pm

I've also been busy today with starting my seasonal job Chris, but I will try to find out about the meeting Prince Charles is trying to arrange, as I think this tactic is crucial to stopping organised poaching, and is going to be the most affective way of tackling it. I will come back with more on that later in the week

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