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Ivory & Rhino Horn Wars

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Post  whitestarling Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:43 am

Ivory campaign in China raising awareness of elephant massacres

70% of Chinese didn't realise ivory came from dead elephants
July 2013. A recent evaluation of an advertising campaign by the International Fund for Animal Welfare (IFAW) to reduce ivory demand in China shows that the campaign is paying dividends with 68% of the respondents said that they would definitely not buy ivory in the future.

70% of Chinese didn't realise ivory came from dead elephants
Previous polling by IFAW found that 70% of the Chinese did not realize that ivory came from dead elephants. In Chinese, elephant ivory is called Xiang Ya (elephant tooth). This nomenclature unfortunately gives people the impression that an ivory tusk, like a person's teeth, can fall out naturally.

For More on the Story http://www.wildlifeextra.com/go/news/ifaw-china-ivory.html

WS


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Post  Laikipia Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:50 pm

Interesting WS. I am stunned they 'didn't know it came from dead elephants'.

Let's hope now they do the poaching will stop, although I feel that is highly unlikely.

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Post  Chris-AWD Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:29 pm

WS this is interesting. I have no idea how it is possible for Chinese people not to know this but nevertheless it all seems to be based on a credible campaign.

I have been busy researching background information for an elephant poaching page on my site and have been getting a bit depressed in the process.

Chinese and Vietnamese ivory traders has been easily corrupting African government officials and the military for poaching our elephants because ivory is the latest conflict resource in Africa.

It is easily converted into cash, and now fueling a number of conflicts across the continent – armies exchange elephant tusks for weapons.

The only possible solution is educating the end users in Asia – this gives me some hope.


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Post  Laikipia Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:53 am

I Agree  with your last line 100% Chris. Let's hope we can educate Asia.

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Post  Doogs Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:41 pm

"70% of Chinese didn't realise ivory came from dead elephants" - Really ?????

I Agree Chris, education definitely the way forward
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Post  whitestarling Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:45 pm

We've had a two part series on here on ITV called Poaching Wars Chris, have'nt watched the second part yet but last weeks was on SA, and one of the Rangers had been offered £10,000 pund to kill a Rhino and bring its Horn to a Government Official, there were also reports on Elephants as well. I will come back to it when I've seen the seconed part . I agree about the education part, but I worry that a lot of species will be extinct before the message gets through
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Post  Laikipia Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:26 am

I've just finished watching it WS - very distressing facts, I won't say more.

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Post  whitestarling Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:19 pm

I can imagine Lai. I found this hopefully Chris you can watch it. It's the Poaching Wars programe I mentioned, I though it might be helpful for your piece on Your Web Site. I'm not sure how long it will stay on You Tube if there's a copyright issue.





Please give us the link to your Poaching page when you've done it Chris

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Post  Chris-AWD Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:15 am

WS thanks for posting the video. I just managed to watch the first episode.

We have documentaries like this frequently on our local TV channels but that was very well done.

I have a few comments to make on the video - will do it a bit later when I get some time.

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Post  Chris-AWD Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:17 am

WS that video had the content that we see daily /weekly in our media.

I thought it was put together very well but around here we are familiar with all of the issues and role players interviewed etc

But I was wondering how UK residents perceive some of these issues.

The tracker guide

The guide that Tom Hardy followed to his village was offered R500 000 by a government official.

At today’s exchange rate that is GBP 31 171.30 - can you understand the temptation for that person when you consider the environment he lives in that village

Did you also note the racial biases that is still inherent in our country where those people associate white men with wealth and oppression who can simply not be trusted - a legacy of our past.

The result is that they see nothing wrong with poaching and rather see it as a way to alleviate their oppression and poverty.

John Hume

He is the private rhino owner and breeder who is a promoter of legalizing the trade in rhino horn. He is very successful in breeding rhinos plan on breeding 200 rhinos a year.

Is he a genuine conservationist or a smart businessman that stands to gain hugely if the trade in rhino horn is legalized? (He owns something like 800 rhinos and a huge stockpile of horn.)

Elephants trained as trackers

Did you notice how close we get to those animals? These are not distant wild animals but more like pets with unique personalities. Even some of the rhinos are fed by hand.

Poaching gets very personal for some of these people. I have seen tough grown men cry at the carcass of one of their animals.


I would like to hear your opinion from an UK perspective.

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Post  littlewid Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:30 pm

HI Chris

I find it hard to believe that a supposedly educated country like China did not know that ivory came from dead elephants. To think it was elephants teeth is just a bit nonsensical.
The research does appear to be credible but I do have reservations about the sample size. As of today, according to Wikipedia and its daily update of countries population rates, China has the largest population in the world, this being a population of 1, 359, 750, 000 so thats just over 1.3 billion so how can they use a sample size of 1067, that just doesn't equate, I appreciate they cant use the whole country (you have to take into account for age, mental ability etc) but that is such a minute percentage of the population I am not sure it can be taken as credible.
It was interesting though that out of that 1067, 490 said no to buying ivory, obviously for different reasons and some not for the right reason but it was interesting to read that 90% said it was wrong to buy ivory because elephants were killed and 58% said they were an endangered species, sadly after that it became a little less realistic with things like it would bring bad karma.
The biggest reason for people already buying ivory to stop buying it was if it was made illegal, this was 60%, but that is still pleasing on such a small cohort, however, if the sample size had been bigger I wonder if that percentage would have been smaller.
The other interesting things was when they questioned past buyers of ivory if they would buy again, this was a 50/50 group of who had seen the PSA and those who hadn't, it worked out that definitely not was 81% of those who had seen the PSA as opposed to 61% of those who hadn't, the probably nots was 17% to the seen PSA and 29% of the not seen and the may still buy was 2% to the PSA group and 10% to not seen, interesting figures there.

I think the research is a good basis to build upon in terms of education as that is the realistic way to go but I also fear it will be a very long process and in the mean time, lots of elephants teeth are going to fall out!!!!!

I will come back on your other questions/thoughts tomorrow Chris.

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Post  littlewid Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:32 pm

HI again Chris

As I said yesterday I will try and answer your questions/thoughts on the poaching from a UK point of view, obviously I can only speak from my perspective and my personal thoughts and I am sure they will differ from others on this forum and also from others around the uk. I can only base my answers on what I understand and I am certainly no expert and also on my personal feelings but at least it will be an honest opinion.

You asked if we could understand the temptation of the tracker when offered such a vast amount of money considering the environment he lives in.
The quick answer is yes, he lives in virtual poverty, with very little money, supporting extended family etc and this is a quick way to earn a lot of dosh and have the luxuary of some piece of mind for the future.
However the flip side to that is understanding the temptation and understanding whether its right or wrong and would I do it. Obviously I dont have elephants or rhino wandering around where I live to murder and earn money from to secure my future, so to earn that amount of money, apart from legally, I could be asked to traffic drugs which could lead to the death of others by taking them, would I do that, no, my conscience and morals would never allow it. This is where I see the problem with
being tempted with large amounts of money with poaching, their is no conscience or morals with some about the murder of animals. We in the uk don't live with them day in and day out, so we/I have a wonderous respect for them and see them as creatures of beauty to be cherished. This may not be how they are seen or respected by people tempted into poaching, they are just animals that are part of the scenery and there is no credible respect for them, if you kill one elephant or rhino there will be another one in the bush so whats the problem, they seem happy enough to chuck away elephant and rhino lives like we chuck away our old pc to buy another one, a disposable commodity.
I think the difference is I/we value elephants and rhinos lives for the magestic creatures they are and the beauty they add to this world and the poachers value them for monetary gain, they see them as ten a penny items.

You also asked if we noted the racial biase associated with white men in respect of wealth and oppression. That did come across. Well we can all hold a grudge at times but how long we hold a grudge for depends on the deed that has been done to us and sadly in the past, the white man has not always been very respectful to the black South Africans, we were happy to wade in, take the land and see the Black South Africans as only fit to serve us, it is not right that went on but also waging war on the white man is not the way forward, especially if it means slaughtering innocent animals, they are the innocent bystanders getting caught up in a race war and this race war has made the Whites and Blacks as bad as each other.

With the comment, they see nothing wrong with poaching, they see it as a way to alleviate oppression and poverty, I was goi g to say I have already covered that but then to compare and contrast my comments, the realism that we in the UK can sometimes be no better than the poacher, it is a comparison that by no means is putting a species in decline but we poach animals too and by that I mean peoples pets, cats and dogs are stollen and sold on, mainly for breeding purposes and sometimes stollen to order for simplistic reason of owning a certain pet but all this comes at a price, the poacher/stealer is paid for the job of doing so and this sits with the last of your questions about poaching getting personal and grown men cryi g over the carass of their animal. They have cared for their animal/s and they must be like pets to them so it is very understanding, just as it is when our pets are stollen and on a more disgusting level like poaching in South Africa, here horses, sheep and goags have been brutally murdered for satanic reasons and in my eyes that sits on the same level as poaching and I would be crying too, as well as gunning for the murderers.

With regard to the elephants being trained as trackers, I suppose they are helping their kind and they did seem to be closely protected, but they are taking the wild out of their lives which is no better than a lot of people around the world moaning about animals being kept in zoos. I see two sides to the eles being used as trackers, they get looked after and protected and they are helping their own kind but they should be free to roam like the other eles and also they should all be able to roam safely and freely without fear of man.

John Hume, now I saw this as a man who nad a good idea of breeding rhino and dehorning them to save them from being poached and to also repopulate the species, this seemed like a credible plan and it does tie in with the conservation work done by many zoos around the world to save endangered species. I know the ethics behind some zoos have been questioned lately with rebards to monetary gain and they way things are done so your question has got the cynical side of me thinking about John Hume, is he just a clever business man? Well if he is do we just have to accept that and agree that he has got one over on the poachers. He is looking after his rhino well and as long as they are dehorned correctly then a dehorned rhino is better than a dead rhino and increasing the species is a good thing, so do we have to accept that along with his business acumen he is actually doing a good thing in the times of poaching that we are living with.

Poachimg is a very contravertial subject and personally I think it will be here for many years to come and we can all stand up and shout about it and I will shout as loudly as the next person. You can always say what you think is right or wrong but pushed to the edge would we be as brave to walk away like the tracker was when he was offered money, I really respect him for that. We can also shout and berate other countries for the way they treat animals and I am always one of the loudest to do so but I like to think I give all animals the respect they deserve andthank them for the beauty they add to our world but animal cruelty goes on world wide and no country is exempt, so when we shout, we have to also look at what is going on at home.

I have probably not answered your questions and I am sure there is more I can say but I do go on and others need to have their say but thats my thoughts or some of them, I have tried to be quick so it may be a bit muddled, sorry about that.

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Post  whitestarling Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:17 pm

I will answer this in parts as well as there are quite a few issues to comment on.
First the survey, as LW says the number taking past is extremely small compared to the population of China. There are millions of educated people in Chinas cities, but out in the in the regions, in the countryside there are millions who are not or very poorly educated. So to me it depends on where this survey was conducted. If you asked the question where does Ivory some from in a city in China, I have no doubt that the percentage would be very high knowing that it came from Elephants tusks, ask the same questions out in the regions, and I would'nt be in the least surprised of an answer Elephants teeth. It all depends on where the sample audience was located. The same goes for the number buying Ivory, only those in the cities are likely to be able afford to buy it, those out in the region are unlikely to be able to afford it. The figures about buying it are encouraging providing we can believe the sample is representative of China, but to me there are some large questions about it.

WS
Ps As Rhinos have been introduced into this Topic, I have changed the Title
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Post  Chris-AWD Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:08 am

As a chartered accountant I used to work a lot with the theories and practical applications of statistical sampling.

When we want to know whom people intends to vote for in an upcoming election or how many birds return from migration obviously the same science is used. To assess the beliefs of billions of people so sampling is the only practical way to do it but it needs to be done with care.

If a reputable firm did that research they would use a sample that could be managed by their computers and that was large enough to provide statistically significant results for a sample that is representative of the Chinese population.

A good sample would contain people of different ages, from different regions of the country etc so that every Chinese person has an equal probability of being in the sample.

It is difficult what level of professional techniques have been applied in this case. At least there is a basis to start with even if it was flawed.

I will wait fo some more replies before I respond to questions I raised regarding the video that WS posted.

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Post  Safariman Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:11 am

Interesting variety of views, I can well understand the survey results and I do not think it has anything to do with town or country dwellers. If in the UK you ask a lot of today's children, particularly in inner cities where does their milk and meat come from and they will answer in all seriousness "Supermarkets" they no idea or interest in where or how it originates and I think the same applies to the Chinese and other Asian countries with regard to ivory and rhino horn. It is not important where it comes, only the end product is relevant. Do cocaine users in the UK ask where does my drug come from and how did it get here of course not they are only interested in the end product. Do we ask where the materials in our must have, cannot do without, mobile phones come from, again of course not. And yet the cause of the on going civil war which has killed millions in the Congo is fighting over the valuable minerals needed to power our phones. Would we say to our phones if we new the suffering that is caused by them, again no. We don't want to know. Fashion is once again using animal furs. Even the perfume industry relied for years on the obnoxious practice of civet farming. With all these products, it is not so much ignorance but our personal greed to have them.
One very drastic way to stop poaching would be to let these animals die out!!! Then the poaching would cease. We also have to ask ourselves why we think these animals should be conserved and to what end. Is it just so we can look and admire them or is it for some other reason.

I am not certain about the racial element in this as I think it has more to do with wealth and power and who wields it.

Interesting to hear about the use of elephants for tracking, I had always thought that the African elephant was very difficult to domesticate and train unlike the Asian elephant which has been used by man for hundreds of years. I know some reserves do promote elephant-back safaris but there have been problems with them.

There are always people who will find a gap in the market and exploit it and whether they do it for profit or altruistic purposes only they will know!!

Its a never ending debate which will carry on ad-infinitum!

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Post  whitestarling Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:42 pm

I will come back on the Videos Chris just wanted to comment on the survey first. I agree Safariman that we dont think where the products we use come from, just that they are there for our conveniance. I have seen clips of children being asked those questions, and coming up with the answers you've said, but to me that shows a lack of education. As to where you live affecting your knowledge, and the answers you give, I believe it makes a great difference, as you said ask the questions re milk, and meat in an inner City, and the majority of answers will be Supermarket. Ask the same questions in a rural, farming community, and you will get the correct answers. Where you live, and are brought up is part of your education. But as has been said we will all have different views on these things.
The Videos raise some complicated issues, and responses will again vary as to how to deal with the poaching issues, and I will post on them in the next couple of days.

WS


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Post  Laikipia Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:07 am

Apologies for not replying to this Chris, I need time to answer properly. I did watch the programme though.

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Post  whitestarling Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:21 pm

That offer to the Ranger must have really been a big temptation, I take my hat off to him for turning it down. I think I have said this before Chris when we talked about the Mozambique villager who was welcomed as a hero for poaching an Elephant because of the wealth he brought to the village so that they could afford things. I think if you are living in poverty, and have a family, children who cant get medicine or an education then I can well understand them poaching its not that they want to make millions they want to take care of their family the best way they can, and if poaching is the only way, then its understandable that they do it. Would I do it under the same circumstances in their position probably. It’s a lot different, than the ones that do it on a regular basis, and come across the boarders in Helicopters with AK47’s these are criminal gangs. The same people at the top are the ones that run the drug cartels, and, human smuggling ect. Also the terrorist groups of the world like Alkieda. This is where to me the concentration should be on stopping poaching. As was said in the Video, there will always be poaching, but it’s the level its at with these criminals, that’s so devastating the wildlife of Africa, and other Countries to. The communities, and villagers that live along side the Elephants, and Rhinos need to receive some of the financial benefits that come from the tourism industry, including jobs, medical facilities, and education. So that they can see the long term benefit of helping, and ensuring the survival of these animals. That’s the only way I think you can get them onside in helping to preserve the Elephants, and Rhinos for future generations
I will come back on the Rhino Horn ect.

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Post  Chris-AWD Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:37 pm

Just a quick reply to some of the response:

I think both littlewid-x and Safariman are misunderstanding the situation regarding the elephants that are trained as tracker.

I do no think you can compare their situation to elephants being kept in a zoo  or that they are domesticated in any way (depending on what you mean with that) at all.

These elephants are totally free to roam when and where they want all the time. They have been trained to track but their freedom in the wild has not been compromised at all.

The presenter even called the interaction with the elephants in the wild a life changing experience. I think only good can come from the message that he can take to the world regarding this experience through his future work.

It seems that every body agrees that we can sympathize with the tracker living in poverty turning down the temptation of the money but we are all angered by the power and greed of the politicians and other web of role players higher up the chain.

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Post  littlewid Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:49 pm

I won't be quick as there is credence in what Safariman and I have both said.

Chris, you say "littlewid and Safariman are misunderstanding the situation of the elephants trained as trackers" you say "I do not think you can compare their situation to elephants being kept in a zoo or that they are domesticated in any way (depending on what you mean with that) at all"

You also said " these elephants are totally free to roam when and where they want all the time. They have been trained to track but their freedom in the wild has not been compramised at all"

I had said " with regard to the elephants being trained as trackers, I suppose they are helping their own kind and they did seem to be closely protected, but they are taking the wild out of their lives which is no better than a lot of people around the world moaning about animals being kept in zoos. I see two sides to the eles being used as trackers, they get looked after and protected and they are helping their own kind but they should be free to roam like the other eles and also they should all be able to roam safely and freely without fear of man".

Safariman said " interesting to hear about the use of elephants for tracking, I had always thought that the African elephant was very difficult to domesticate and train unlike the Asian elephant which has been used by man for hundreds of years. I know some reserves do promote elephant-back safaris but there have been problems with them"

Let me just give credence to what Safariman said about his use of the term domesticated as I understand what he was saying.
To truely have a domesticated species you achieve this through generations of selective breeding, so you may think a better wordage would have been to use taming, as the definition of taming is the process by which animals become accustomed to human presence. However in the "Convention on Biological Diversity" a domesticated species is defined as a "species in which the evolutionary process has been influenced by humans to meet their needs" therefore these animals have been brought under the control of humans.
This explains Safarimans use of the word domesticated in reference to the tracker elephants, they have been trained/domesticated for the use of man.

I said they were taking the wild out of their lives which is no better than people around the world moaning about animals being kept in zoos. Animals in zoos are not free to roam as they please in the habitats that they were meant to be in. Well these elephants are not free to roam as they should be allowed to do so in the wild, yes they can roam around but that roaming stops when they are required to track for man, their roaming comes with constraints, so they are not free roaming elephants in the true sense of the word.
Again you said "These elephants are totally free to roam when and where they want all the time. They are trained to track but their freedom in the wild has not been compromised at all" ok their freedom is not compromised by being kept in a cage or pen but they are being compromised as they are not free to roam independently whislt they are being domesticated trackers for man.

I therefore believe that Safariman and I have understood completely the situation about elephants being used as trackers. We never said it wasn't a good thing that they are able to help track poachers but it is a shame their freedom is being compramised, as I said, all elephants should be able to freely roam wherever and whenever they want and without fear of man, that is being truely wild.

I appreciate Safariman can speak for himself but when there is something to say that I feel strongly about, I will always stand up and speak out and I always see standing up for animals and yourself the rightful thing to do.

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Post  Safariman Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:00 pm

Thanks for the comments LW.
I have no problem with elephants being used to help track poachers, man has always used wild animals in one way or another to suit his own needs. The point I was making was that the African elephant has always proved difficult to train due to its unpredictable temperament. On the other hand the Indian elephant appears to be a lot more docile and therefore easier to train. When elephants were used in circuses, it was always the Indian elephant.
I did read recently that one African country, I am not sure which, had ground down all its ivory stocks down into powder to ensure they could never go onto the market.
As I said in my earlier post it is a debate that will go on until there are no wild elephants or rhinos left!!!

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Ivory & Rhino Horn Wars Empty Re: Ivory & Rhino Horn Wars

Post  Laikipia Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:23 pm

I Agree  Safariman.

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Ivory & Rhino Horn Wars Empty Re: Ivory & Rhino Horn Wars

Post  Chris-AWD Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:30 am

littlewid-x it seems that we have a difference in opinion (which is perfectly OK) regarding the elephants which are  being trained as trackers.

Like Safariman I have absolutely no problem with that like I have stated in my previous reply.


On the elephant tusk destruction

A point of interest is that most large-scale public destructions of ivory is usually a done by fire. Kenya burned 12 tons of elephant tusks in 1989 that captured media attention. This set the trend for future destruction of ivory stockpiles by Zambia that burned 9.5 tons in 1992; Kenya, another 5 tons in 2011 and Gabon, 4.8 tons in 2012.

The surprising thing is that ivory is a durable substance so that unless the fire is sustained at very high temperatures burning does not destroy elephant ivory - it only chars the exterior and leaves the inside intact.

That is why human teeth is used for identification in raging house fires when everything else is destroyed.

That is the reason for the crushing technique now being used.

Vietnamese delegation
We have been hosting a Vietnamese delegation in our country the last week – I listened to a radio interview with them this morning.

They visited Kruger Park last week and are hoping to take the message regarding the destruction of our wildlife.

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Ivory & Rhino Horn Wars Empty Re: Ivory & Rhino Horn Wars

Post  whitestarling Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:34 pm

Thanks for the info on the destruction of the Elephant tusks Chris I did'nt know that crushing was better. I think if I remember right Tanzania has been the only Country recently who has proposed selling off seized Ivory. Now America had also decided to destroy Ivory it has seized. Hopefully the Vietnamese visitors will take back the message of what's happening in Africa.
Ok I’ve finally got round to Rhino Horn. I can see the logic behind John Hulmes idea for Rhino Horn, but I have some concerns. Can enough Rhinos be breed to supply the demand from China, and Vietnam, and then supply it at price that is lower than that of the criminal gangs supplying it at the moment. If this is done, are we not sending out two conflicting messages. On one hand we are talking about educating the Chinese, and Vietnamese, that Rhino Horn is useless, and has no properties whatsoever as a medicine. On the other hand, we are saying, but if you still want to buy it we will supply it to you, to me that will only perpetuate the use of it. On the ethical side, would we not be reducing the Rhino to the level of a dairy herd of cattle, instead of milking them, we are dehorning them. Is that the life a wild animal like a Rhino should live, or would the Rhino, be better off going extinct living its life as it should in the wild ?.

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Ivory & Rhino Horn Wars Empty 'You're nothing without rhino horn'

Post  Chris-AWD Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:38 pm

Here is an article in our local press today that explains the source of our rhino horn problem quite clearly.

Meet Mr L. He is a Vietnamese citizen - and a proud rhino-horn user.

Mr L is wealthy. Influential. A decision-maker. His rhino horn shows that he has "arrived". He is important in his community - and in his own mind.

His rhino horn was a gift from his wife or his mother, or from a business partner trying to sweeten a deal.

It is one of his most important possessions. Something to show off to his friends and peers, whose opinions of him he holds in high regard.

Mr L is 48 years old. He is intelligent and educated. He knows that the rhino horn he grinds up for guests after dinner has been brought into the country illegally.

But he doesn't care. Rarely in his country's history has anybody been arrested or convicted for possession or use of rhino horn. If a crackdown started, he might think twice about using rhino horn.

He knows that a rhino has been killed for the horn he now possesses. But that doesn't matter. It is an animal in a forest in a far-off country. When they show him pictures of a rhino, slaughtered in South Africa for its horn, he shrugs his shoulders.

Mr L is one of the 5% of his countrymen (population 84million) who boast of using rhino horn.

It has detoxifying qualities, he believes, and gives him an emotional lift. He doesn't believe that it might cure a fatal disease.

His son bought him his previous rhino horn.

"I am still not sure how good it is, but my dad's friend used it, so I bought it for my dad.

"Though he does not have any fatal ailments, he says he feels healthy and well after using it. I think rhino horn has more of a mental value than a physical one," said the son.

Mr L's subordinates at work aspire to be in his shoes one day, and that means getting hold of rhino horn. They make up the 16% of the population that has not used rhino horn, but want to. Their problem is the $60000 (about R590000) per kilogram price tag.

Mr L is the personification of the rhino-horn user in Vietnam, as identified by a recent consumer research study funded by the World Wide Fund for Nature SA.

The study surveyed 720 individuals in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City, and discovered that rhino horn is valued mainly for its social significance.



What do you think? - I do not think this problem will be resolved in our lifetimes.

Chris

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