Should reptiles be kept as pets

Hi all,

I am not sure whether I am posting this in the right place - if not I'm sure the moderators will move it.

I am a firm believer in keeping wildlife in the wild. In South Africa we have a problem where reptiles are being sold from roadsides to be kept as pets. Because of the ignorance of the buyers most of the "cute chameleons" etc die within weeks.

Wildlife protection organizations in Europe are applauding a decision by the Norwegian government to retain a 37-year old ban on reptile and amphibian keeping and trading.

A 65 page research report supports the decision as to why they decided this. If you’re interested google for “ reptiles and amphibians as pets - the Norwegian positive list proposal”

I remember reading some time ago that Britons increasingly opt for low-maintenance pets such as bearded dragons and geckos. Apparantly the number of reptiles kept as pets in the UK has increased to around 9 million, compared to about 7 million dogs.

Are you witnessing this trend in the UK?

What do people around here think? For or against keeping reptiles as pets?

Chris

HI Chris
I did think about moving this to the debate section but for now I think you are just after a general consensus on what people think and it is directed as a pet question, so happy to leave it here for now.

I am not sure myself if reptiles are being more sought after as pets compared to dogs and cats. What we do seem to hear about or see on programmes about animal centres is that a lot of reptiles that have been brought as pets either end up in animal centres or dead or near to death because people do not know how to look after them properly. They may be posed as easy or low maintenance but they do have their specific needs and I don't believe that people always research how much specific care some need.

Do I think they should be taken from their natural habitat to become pets or breeders for pets, no I don't. Then the question then comes, what do you do with all the ones that are bred here from imported species? It's so hard isn't it because if they are not homed do we just let them die? I actually like a lot of reptiles but I think we should really play a part in this country in stopping the illegal trade of them and for those that are legal is it a case of having a licence to keep them? We used to have a licence to have a dog, it was only a small fee and I am not sure if that stopped cruelty or not, so not sure if a licence would for reptiles either.

Sadly so many animals are taken from their natural environment to either become pets or zoo exhibits, there is such a lot of debate as to what is classed as right or wrong but I do believe if you own any creature as a pet, rightly or wrongly you owe it to that creature to do your very best for it and not mistreat it.

I probably haven't answered your question at all.........sorry

littlewid-x-

My answer Chris, is a definite NO. A wild animal of whatever species is exactly that, a wild animal, and should never be kept as a pet. All animals should have the best quality if life, so how can you give a wild animal that quality of life, it’s impossible simply because it’s a wild animal. I for one cannot see what enjoyment a person can get from keeping reptiles. How do you take a snake, or a lizard for a walk ?, how do you create a bond with them ?I just do not see what enjoyment anyone can get from keeping them. There does not seem to be any restrictions in the UK to keeping reptiles, apart from endangered species which surprises me. I just checked online, and the number of sites advertising Bearded Dragons is amazing. I didn’t realise they were so popular. So as I said for me the answer is most definitely No.
Thanks for bringing it up Chris, really interesting subject
WS

Nice topic starter Chris, and good points made all around about reptiles being wild and not really a pet. How do you create a bond with one as you do a dog or cat? Exactly WS. Must be mostly that some take reptiles into their home thinking they are low maintenance. I guess that in many cases the kids want a pet, maybe the parents don't; a turtle or a snake or a lizard is the compromise.

I am thinking about getting a lizard now though as I am smiling at the thought of being able to get it to heel on our walk. Could be more achievable than with my Jackeys

I am happy to see these comments.

One of the firts problems are that keepers of reptiles as pets usually have no knowledge of their dietary requirements and the result is inevitability that malnutrition is the main causes of death. That is why the end up at the abandoned animal centers that LW is referring to.

Handling a wild animal is always poor practice. Unlike domesticated animals such as dogs and cats, that have social traits that make them amenable to interaction with humans - reptiles do not have those traits. In fact handling these wild animals is typically a stressful process for the animal because it usually perceives the handler as a predator.

Reptiles also require substantial space. When we study them in nature we see that they are highly active as part of their home ranges and/or to defend territories. They must be highly active in order to catch their prey. To put that animal in a cage is extremely stressful to it.

Glad we seem to agree on this.

Chris

By the way in the UK you have a "Pets at Home chain" which reported a 250% increase in annual sales of reptiles and related products in 2011. I am not sure whether that trend is still happening today.

I can't say for sure whether Pets at Home still sell reptiles Chris as I don't tend to use them much but I know the one we have did used to sell reptiles, I will have to take a closer look when I am next near there.

It is good that we do seem to have the same thought process that reptiles should be left in the wild. The trouble is that man wantsto get his hands on everything, whatever the cost to the animal or species.
littlewid-x-

Very good points Chris about people not knowing what food to give reptiles, and that to handle them is stressful.

I can hear them yelling, "If I wanted to be patted I'd be a furry!"

Well hello there.

If I did happen to be a reptile than I'm certainly not anymore, as I'm feeling rather warm blooded just now...

And is meant to be over in Australia

So I guess the most important question is, do you handle warm blooded creatures too?

It's a little unfair to post those pics. Sure, I've posted pics of myself on here that are half handsome, but not whilst trying to make an argument

Cause you kinda had me at blue tongue

On a slightly more serious note, a very warm to the forum WP (we all get nicknames around here). This place tends to be more into big cats, other African animals, birds and so forth, though of course we can always be influenced to take a different interest

And it's up to us to influence you too!



You obviously have enormous passion for this subject (scalys) and thanks for taking the time to make such a detailed response to Chris' original post and the rest of our follow ups.

It's a good point you make about there being such an abundance of info out there for dog and cat owners. It is all around us; issues with dogs (the pets I have) certainly cannot be blamed on a lack of collective intelligence on behalf of the human race on the subject; whereas for reptiles there is probably a lot more general ignorance.

And of course there are bad pet owners regardless of the type of animal.

More intelligent folk might be encouraged to become vets in the reptile field if they were given a more favourable title of study than herpetology! Sorry, but it sounds rather like a disease

In the case of reptile vets though, isn't it a case of supply and demand? More dog/cat owners mean that more vets will go into those fields as there will be more guaranteed work. Without greater numbers of reptile pets this discrepency won't change. But there could be a lot higher percentage of reptile owners out there than I would imagine.

Your story of your rescue of your skink is very lovely. I don't know too much about pet stores in Australia, but the ones I've seen just have furries; dogs, cats, rabbits, guinea pigs. Oh, and budgies.

So you living in a big city (Calgary) means that you have good access to all your reptile needs, whereas if you lived more out in the wilderness - which there is a lot of I gather in spacious Canada - it would be a huge distance to travel to get to any expert on the matter.

With your skink and deceased beardie, are they really affectionate with you? It looks like it from your photos, and that would surprise me I guess. Does the blue tongue give you little licks/kisses? My dogs do, as do many other canines. Have your lizards often gravitated towards you to seek company, or are they more sterotypical cat like and keep to themselves, waiting for your approach?

Not too sure if many creatures could resist you handling them though, so your point about lizards being comfortable whilst held may be rather invalid. You've merely indicated that lizards have great taste

So in summing up, it might be politically incorrect to own reptiles as pets, but then again so is the post. And political incorrectness can be rather indeedy.

GR (proud owner of a pair of jack russells; about as un-reptile as one gets)

P.S. But there sure aren't any scales on your skin

Hi Wren
Welcome to WAA, and thank you for responding, and commenting on this topic. It’s good to hear the other side of the debate from someone who has experience of keeping Reptiles.
From your story you are clearly a loving, and caring pet owner, who has taken the trouble to research the pets in your care, and well done for saving the BTS from Petland. Apart from the fact that I believe that all wild creatures, should live in the wild, and not be pets, I think it’s places like Petland that are the biggest cause of the problem with keeping Reptiles. Stores likes this are just interested in turnover, and profit, and will sell to anyone. They are selling Reptiles as low maintenance that you can keep in a flat, or anywhere. They don’t, and are unable to give proper advice in the keeping, problems, and downfalls of keeping Reptiles, and really they should be banned from selling them, and the sale of Reptiles if they are going to be sold, they should only be through specialist stores.
On the pet side as I said I don’t think wild creatures of any sort should be sold as pets, and although you say that yours show affection, I cant believe that they have bonding emotions like Cats, and Dogs, true they will show signs of fear, and stress, but as far as coming to you for a cuddle, or for comfort I just cant see it. I also think with most people their reaction to Reptiles is primal, and instinctive, that stems from when cold, and warm blooded animals split, and most people fear of reptiles stems from there, also in nearly all the stories you read including the Bible, Reptiles are nearly always the baddies, and evil that is evidence of our basic feelings towards them.
Having said all that, I think your pics with BTS are great, and show how much you care for it, and I’m also sad that you lost Trogdor, again that must have been very emotional for you. So Wren I absolutely agree You make a Great Pet Mom

WS
Whitestarling
( The Admin Team )

WP, you're the first newbie in months I think who has actually bothered to make a second post

We can always do with more chitter chatter around here - which we call rabbitting - so feel free to browse the forum where there is interesting conversation aplenty and become one of us

With plenty of resources around regarding reptile vets, I suppose it's what you suggested earlier; that some pet owners just don't bother with caring for their animal, and don't want to pay the costs to give them the happy and healthy life that they deserve.

Nothing wrong with snuggling towards a heat source anyway. My dog Bella does this regularly with me, and she is still considered by the masses as being affectionate. But that your skink doesn't approach you for heat/affection is of course different to my jack russell.

It's pretty heart-wrenching what you write about the passing of Trogdor. Obviously it really effected you greatly and took quite some time to get over (though perhaps in a way you will never get over it as she will always have a place in your heart). Thank-you for sharing this story with us.

I'm with WS in that you make a great pet mom. Your care for your scalys is clearly a profound one.

Hi Wren

I don’t want to repeat what WS said but you have clearly handled your duties as a reptile owner with a great degree of responsibility, which is very praiseworthy.

The fact that you have rescued your skink form Petland and have bonded emotionally makes my original post basically irrelevant in this context because it was certainly not aimed at people like you.

I am certainly not an expert on reptiles and my interest is more with African wildlife that roams the open plains on our continent.(hence my concerns with wild animals kept in captivity)

Maybe this is an opportunity for you to educate us (well certainly me).

The main concern I would have regarding your pets is that reptiles require environmental space to pursue and catch their prey. Are they also not usually active when in nature and travel long distances as part of their home ranges and to defend territories?

Scientists say that providing water and food in captivity doesn’t sufficiently address the physiologically need for these animals to move around. So I suppose my concerns relate to captivity-stress problems that you have encountered and how you have managed it.

I would love to hear your opinion on this.

Chris

HI Wren
Welcome to the forum. I know you said you only joined to add your comment to this post but I hope you stay around.
Chris was right, his post was not directed at kind people like yourself who have rescued reptiles, you have obviously done a wonderful job and are now quite accomplished with looking after them. The question about as to whether they should be pets so really should they be left in the wild. I am with WS on this that all wild animals should be left in the wild, however, as breeding goes on they do need caring and well informed owners like yourself.
It has been interesting reading about your reptiles and it would be really nice if you could update us about them on a regular basis and educate us more on reptiles. This forum may appear to be mainly about African wildlife but actually it's about all animals so having more info and pics, which yours are great by the way, on reptiles would be fantastic as we all love to learn and you may be able help others that are looking in but may not have actually joined the forum.
It's been informative reading your posts, so thank you
littlewid-x-

Wren your post now reminds me of something I saw once that I thought was a very strange sight.

A few years back when I was still traveling quite a bit I missed a flight out of Miami, Florida. I had to spend the weekend in a hotel on Miami Beach.

I was amazed to see people walking these huge reptiles on leashes down Ocean Drive. I had no idea they could be reptile pet owners that were walking their Savannah Monitors for a walk to get exercise.

If you are familiar with Ocean Drive on a weekend you will know that it is a hectic place. I think these owners were doing it to show off their “exotic pets” because it certainly drew a lot of attention.

I agree with you that "they're a species that truly deserves to be in the wild."

Chris

Oh that's upsetting. I don't like seeing exotics on display. Though to be fair, I would take both my lizards out for walks in the park on hot summer days as a great but I really did not like the attention. People have good intentions, but my kids and I just wanted to be alone in the sunshine! Kona and I now have a routine where I drop him in the tall grass around trees. I have to stand there and watch him get all excited about the new smells before he takes a nap wrapped around a tree. Haha what a guy!

I agree with both you Wren, and Chris. There is no way a Monitor of that size should be kept as a pet, and also displayed in that way. I've watched Water Monitors on the Web Cams on here on Pete's Pond in SA, and Africam. They are true creatures of the wild, and should be left there. There's a big difference in you taking Kona out, your giving him stimulation, and new sensations with different areas to explore, and thats brilliant, its also shows what responsible, and caring owner you are. It's a long way from doing what is the equivalent of a fashion parade, like Chris saw on Ocean Drive.
Wren I did'nt know there were so many types of different worms. I've never heard of a lot of those, are they local to Canada or are some imported in. I dont think we have many different types here in the UK, I will have to check
WS

Great posts guys; very interesting reading

And I guess that if WP is only going to chat about this subject then I'd better start speaking reptilian

You have a way with words lizard lover and provide us with interesting stories

"I thought for a while about getting a monitor down the road, but realized" that they're not very fuel efficient I just have never really thought of these animals as a pet before, so find it all kind of amusing. Good on you for admitting your interest in getting one, but in not doing so due to caring for their wellbeing.

And you are humble! I couldn't stop laughing when you spoke of attention received by you and your kids when out in the park, because well, I wasn't sure if it was your loved ones who were the ones being viewed as exotic

Chris, thanks for your story about Miami beach. Must have been quite a sight and shock!

As WS suggested, your knowledge about your passion (scalys) is truly phenomenal WP. Wow for sure. When did your love for reptiles first become apparent to you? Was there one particular experience that inspired it? Do you think that there is a particular aspect to your personality that has drawn you to the green things rather than to cats or dogs? It's interesting I think. But I could ask myself the same I guess. Why do I like dogs? I have been exposed to them a bit in life before getting one as a pet myself, and that contributted. Did you encounter many other reptiles as pets before taking the plunge yourself?

I like the phrase you use of "What a guy!" It's a very smirk-inducing way of describing your Kona's actions!

GR