Removing non indigineous species

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13181503

Something for the debate................

My opinion is that non natives should be controlled/removed if damage to native species is occuring.Not an easy subject,for example on the Scottish mainland our Red deer are being hybridised by Sika,soon only the islands will have pure stock.
Some animals we now consider "British",Pheasants,Rabbits and Brown Hares for example,but new species,not ones that are being re-introduced after man exterminated them,should be restricted.
Grey Squirrels are a prime example along with plants like Japanese Knotweed,Himalayan Balsam and Rhododendrons are wiping out our own natural species.As an Island we were protected for a long while,but now man is causing more destruction again.

I agree with TB and would add mink to the list, they have wiped out the water voles.

Lai

I dont think you'll get a lot of arguement there TB, apart from the odd species, but I cant think of one at the moment. Another I would add along with Mink, is the American Signal Crayfish, that is causing devastation in our rivers, and streams. The sad thing is that these species will pay the price for Mans foolishness, they did'nt ask to be here
WS

I see there are a few issues here TB, whilst I agree a lot of species are wiping out our own indigineous species, which is incredibly sad for us and the species itself, a lot of these animals and plants did not ask to be here as WS has said, but we still seem to take our annoyance out on these innocent animals; for me, I understand that we can't let a non native species kill off our indigineous species but I would hope that peoples annoyance/anger is aimed in the right direction, which is towards the people that are bringing them into the country and not at the animals themselves. I do agree that we can't have Mink running wild killing off our Water Vole population which is so under threat but when you read reports about the Mink they are always portrayed as evil little things, yes they are to the Water Voles and we do need to humanly control them but I just wish they weren't painted as the evil ones when many of them were just let loose knowing what devastation they could do, the Mink didn't just decide to come here and cause devastation.
How did the Monk Parrakeets get here? as they live in colonies can we assume they weren't introduced to the country, have they just infiltrated themselves? if so what is making them leave South America, is it to do with the climate or are they being edged out by another species or habitat loss? could that be something the South Americans could look at to try and stop it happening. It's good that they are hoping to house them in captivity but it isn't going to stop it happening unless they understand the root cause.
It really does appear that man is turning the wildlife world upside down and why, I don't know, is it just stupidity on mans part or are we devastating habitat without knowing the true impact of what we are doing and do those that are doing it really care about the impact on our wildlife or what it may have on the non native species.
Also I never realised that the Rhododendron had so many sub species to it, there are loads but apparantly they are susceptable to being sufocated by other plants if there are a lot of other varieties planted closely around them.

littlewid-x-

Following on from TB's question. On The Animals Guide to Britain last night Chris Packahm did a piece on Red Squirrels, and the devastating affect on them by the imported Greys. The Red Squirrel Protection Partenership is trying to save one of the last areas in which the Red Suirrel survives by trapping the Greys, and killing them. To offset some of the cost they are selling the the bodies to Resturaunts who make things like Squirrel Pie ect some as far as London. As Animal lovers is this acceptable.

WS

I guess it depends on the "camp" you sit in,there are those who say don't interfere,but it was man that interferred in the first place.
Sadly all over the world europeans in the past have had devatating impacts,from exterminating the Dodo,to slaughtering Whales and Bison to the point of extinction.
We reintroduce species like Red Kites,Goshawks and Sea Eagles along with Beavers to try and repair some of the damage to the eco system,should we not remove the Grey Squirel and Mink,that are not passive, but agressively damaging our ecology,so it would seem are these parrots in the original post.
In North America,the greys natural habitat,they are seen as part of the food chain ,both for wild animals and for humans.Sadly in the UK their predators are vitually non existant.

The camp I sit in is probably going to be known as the Airy Fairy unrealistic camp. I see the problem the Grey Squirrels are causing and I would like our own Red Squirrels to survive but capturing and killing them just breaks my heart. I can accept natural predators killing them as it goes on in the animal world but they are not a normal diet for us and I do not agree with killing them for food, being a vegetarian it really does not sit well with me at all. The Greys did not ask to be here but I also understand we can't capture them all and place them where they should be or where there are natural predators for them.
I always live in the dilema of I know we should protect our own but I cant cope with killing an animal for killings sake, I always respect the life of that animal and it is more often than not, man that has put an animal at risk of loosing it's life. Again we are blaming the Grey Squirrel for the loss of the Red Squirrel but really we should be blameing man. If man left alone we wouldn't have these dilemas. So in answer to your question about is it acceptable to sell the squirrels for food to offset the cost of killing them WS, for me it is a no.

littlewid-x-

Well put,I respect your opinion as I live with a vegetarian and it is a quandry.
I am a bit of a dinosaur I guess and do take food from the wild,often just plants or berries.
My father came to the UK from abroad when the allies decided to give his country to the Soviets,so I do understand that my feelings pale into insignificance really.
I prefer to grow or source my food,knowing that it has had something of a natural life,hopefully without absorbing too many chemicals,that man has placed everywhere in our food.
You may think it weird,but my ancestry and my upbringing meant that I was taught to shoot and grow things,to catch fish and then eat everything I harvest.I also follow the teaching of Natives of North America and Australia in respecting the nature as well as my own Baltic/Scandinavian roots.
Not everyone would wish to skin and gut their dinner before eating it and I am glad not everyone has too,I do out of choice,one I make everytime I remove something from the wild.I don't ask that you understand or agree,but things like the Grey Squirell and and the American Signal Crayfish are eaten in the States where they live naturally.We will never remove them,anymore than we will remove Rabbits,Pheasants and a variety of other "aliens",I just worry that the ones with no predators will remove our native fauna.

I think I’ve got a foot in both Camps. First TB, I think your way of sustaining yourself is the most Eco-Friendly way man can survive, we are after all by nature Hunter, Gatherers. Hunter, Gatherers only hunt, and gather what they need so there is minimal waste. I, like the vast majority of people have devolved our hunting, gathering duties to the like of Tesco, Asda, and the rest of the Supermarkets, which is certainly not the most Eco-Friendly way of eating, given the waste that it produces, as we have all seen, plus the waste from all the buy one get one free promotions that create more waste. At the same time this gives me the luxury of being able to choose what I want to eat, and don’t want to eat because I think its wrong. I suppose that makes me a bit of a hypocrite really. So the answer to could I eat a Squirrel is NO.

I was brought up in the countryside, and as a child worked on farms, helping out, so I’m used to the idea of animals being killed, for food. I also have a lot of admiration for people like youe Wife, and LW who choose to be vegetarians. The generation before mine, and a lot of my generation eat, and like Rabbit stew, could I eat one No. It sounds daft to me as well, I’m arguing with my self. I also don’t eat Lamb, so I think its down to small fluffy things.

So back to the quandary of what to do with the Greys, Mink, and American Crayfish. Is it acceptable to kill them, and sell them for food to protect our native species, the animal lover in me says No, the pragmatist in me says if this is the only way our native species can be saved, and it is the only way it can be funded, then so be it. I don’t think we will ever eradicate these species from our shores now, and the best we can do, is to provide protected areas, where our own native species can survive.

WS

PS
TB there was a section on Goshawkes. I need to check it again, and I will post about it in the Raptors section

The idea of this section of the forum is doing it's work,promoting thought and dialogue,really good in my opinion.No ones right or wrong,but we can make , perhaps more of an informed decision after digesting others opinions and experience,by the way I can forage in a supermarket as well,not got room for a cow for my milk.

I am not sure what the answer is really. I am not happy with animals being killed because there are not enough natural predators to stop them taking over but then again i don't want our own native species being wiped out either. I really feel as though the animals are caught up in the middle of all this and they are totally innocent, they did not ask to be here.
I wish we could be more like Australia, they seem to have a better control over what animals and plants are allowed into their country so as not to upset the balance of their Fauna and Flora. there must be some way the balance can be re-addressed without the first thought being that of killing animals.
Another issue springs to mind from your last comment TB, not going to the supermarket to get your milk, thats what the majority of us do and will always do, but it's the thought that many animals are kept for their milk, wool, breeding etc and then slaughtered when they are of no more use. I too find that very sad and hard to accept that we use the animals to our gains and then when we percieve them to no longer be of use, we kill them. i appreciate it costs a lot to keep animals when farmers see no return from them but is it fair?

littlewid-x-

Thing is littlewid that's where your pet food comes from,so if we keep cats or dogs,they too are part of the supply and demand.
There clearly is no single solution,apparently even the RSPB are culling certain predators on their managed resrves.
Man has always had some form of conflict going with nature since we first came down from the trees,I just wish we could do things better instead of it getting worse,you'd think we'd learn wouldn't you?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-13360874

So now the debate moves on a step,will it work?I doubt it,they seem to be very resourcefull creatures.

That is so true TB, I had not really thought about that. my cats only eat dried food but that does apparantly have chicken in it. they don't eat any cat meat as it does not agree with them....so maybe that says something for the quality of meat that is in there. Nero does eat meat and has rawhide chews.....I wonder if there is a substitute animal food or if that would not be healthy for them. it does seem as though it is hard to get away from using animals as all kinds of food.....or is there a solution.

I have looked at the link you posted and they do have some big names backing this but they don't say how they are going to stop the Mink.....do they assume we know what they are doing or are they not saying becuase it's about killing them? surely they are not planning to baricade them from the area......do you know what they are doing as you are in Scotland.

littlewid-x-

I hear on the grape vine that they are using live traps and then killing the mink and releasing those that's not a mink.I am right on the fringe of the area in Tayside,so will keep my ears open,you may know I am a fisherman and I'm sure the estates I fish will be involved,so I will ask.

Thanks TB. That sounds horrible for the Mink. I say again that I do appreciate that our own native species need protecting but my heart really does sink at the thought of innocent animals being trapped and then killed and how do they kill them....not sure i want to know that one. I think this is something I can really see the logic of needing to remove the Mink but the respect for animals i have just overwhelms any sense of removing them in the fashion they are surely being removed and my annoyance for man for interfering in the first place just grows daily.Thanks for trying to find out more info, I hope it's not too distressing to hear.

littlewid-x-