Re: Marsh Pride Updates

**Doogs** Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:39 pm

All this just goes to show how difficult it is to keep track of lions - it's easier to distinguish Cheetah's and Leopard's due to their markings but the lions are a different kettle of fish !!! Marsh Pride Updates - Page 11 615959

I am actually a wee bit surprised that both Jonathan & Warren were/are not 100% sure if it's Clawed or not. Because of his teeth and that swelling at the back of his right elbow I would have thought he would have been one of better lions to identify ? Just my thoughts.

I must admit I found that last picure known of Clawed alive posted on FB pretty shocking. I can't believe he ended up looking like that just 4 months after we saw him, very very sad Crying or Very sad

Just wanted to go back to the Romeo saga which I haven't commented on on here. There was a bit of debate on FB as to whether the photo Jackson posted was him or not and I must confess when I compared a photo I took last year to Jackson's I did not think it was Romeo. Due to being at a funeral Fri afternoon then a dance in Dunblane Sat/Sun I didn't get the chance to state that on here.

I think the best people to identify Romeo (or a dead Clawed for that matter) would be the guides from the Governors Camps as they see these lions almost on a daily basis and I would have thought more than anyone else in the Mara. Jackson is not around the Mara as much these days (due to various working committments) and his camp is a fair distance from the Marsh Pride Territory, he would know these lions but just how well ? as he probably wouldn't have visited them on a regular basis. Again that is just my thoughts but one thing for sure is that it's all very confusing !! scratch

and I think I'm right in saying to this day we are still not 100% sure if it was Romeo or not !

Doogs Marsh Pride Updates - Page 11 112330

**Doogs** Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:41 pm

Update from Warren Today (02/02/2012)

"Another hot day in the Mara! Went looking for the mother leopard - Zawadi, and her 3 month old cub but no luck. 4 young male lions - the musketeers, killed a buffalo early this morning and were chased off by the herd. Dead hippo bull floating in the dam near the governors airstrip. Hyenas swimming to it and feeding off it - very funny! There was also a small croc feeding on it yesterday".

**Laikipia** Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:41 pm

Doogs. Marsh Pride hangs out by Governors camp - so they would know.

Lai

**whitestarling** Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:17 pm

Your doing us proud today Doogs with all the updates. I know you know the Mara better than most of us that have'nt been, and we tend to rely on people like Jackson, and Jonethan for definate news on things like Clawed, and Romeo, so if the Govereners Guides are there all the time, I can understand you still not being sure, and I suppose that must now go for the rest of us
WS

PETER BISSET Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:26 am

Well it is official- The great one our most beloved Clawed is dead. Unfortunately it seems that they not going to take up the offer I made on FB regarding his burial(I knew they wouldn't). I am hoping to head back out to Kenya and naturally the mara soon (how I wish I lived there as there are no lions in OZ). Anyway when I am out there I will try and get as much info on all the little things people forget to mention.
I have loved Big cats since 98 when I heard the story of Half Tail(great to see Shadow carrying the flag still) but everyone has their all time favourite, for me it was and always shall be Clawed. Romeo and Clawed reigned longer than any other pride males of the Marsh Pride in living memory and without doubt were two of the most successful. As I stated before I drew inspiration watching Clawed hobble around defiant against enemies and nature refusing to yield to his advancing years. For a wild male to reach 14 years is amazing but for me Clawed's character was shown most clearly last year when he stood his ground against impossible odds as where many others would have just taken off. I use to think the nobility we associate with lions was only due to their power but Clawed has shown us all he had a noble spirit(how many times was he written off???) and courage beyond what we expect. Anyway to keep it simple I love him and like many of you have experienced genuine grief at his death(was absolutely amazed at the response to his death). Jonathon Scott may call Notch the king and no question Notch is a great lion but when it comes to spirit there is but one King- the great Clawed!!!

**Laikipia** Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:26 am

You'll have to let us know when you're off to Kenya and the Mara Peter. We're hoping to go again this year but as yet no definite plans, Pete is thinking we could go over New Year which would be fun.

I've also loved BCD since it started and have followed it always right to the end with BCD live. With FB, Twitter, e-mail updates and forums we are able to keep up with what is going on, albeit sometimes slightly conflicting news - I think sadly now we really do have to accept that Clawed has gone - the last photos shown of him were awful to see and I would rather remember him as the magnificent lion he was.

Lai

PETER BISSET Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:50 am

I think the Mara is my one and only holiday spot since I can't afford to take more than one big Trip every year(being in Australia doesn't help) and if you give me a choice between the Mara and say anywhere else then I always pick the Mara. Although some of it's emotional pull is lost now that I can't spend 4 days looking for one particular lion(any guesses?).

**Doogs** Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:32 pm

Governors Camp Collection

Wildlife services vet treating Scarface's eye.
There was an infection but the eye itself is fine.

Marsh Pride Updates - Page 11 Scarfa10

**Laikipia** Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:38 pm

Thanks Doogs. Good to see Scarface being treated.

Lai

**whitestarling** Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:08 pm

Great to see Scarface is getting the treatment to stop the infection. Guessing that would be King C, Peter. C for Clawed, C for Courage. Jonethan has some nice words about Clawed on his Blog
WS

**Doogs** Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:50 pm

Some info re the 'Notches' via Simon Chebon on FB today (07/02/2012):

"The Notches reign of terror is now headed easterly towards Keekorok; 5 months after dethroning the 4 musketeers in between Fig Tree Camp and Ol Kiombo. Having downed several hippos and buffalos for weeks and the fact that most females in their territories have cubs or are pregnant, the levels of testosterone are unbearable. For those who have a map, it's believed that the bad boys have taken over a pride yesterday morning at Hammercop (in between Posee Plains and Metaplains), up on Ol Keju Rongai stream not far from the main road from Talek to Keekorok. Though the reports are a bit scanty, it is believed that several cubs were killed and these guys should be mating again! Just can't stop imagining, the pros and cons of this coalition ... at this rate and in the absence of a stronger coalition to repulse these boys, in two years they should be around sand river heading to Serengeti".

Reply fm Onesmus Ole Irungu : "Yap...Simon...Unconfirmed Reports are that they killed 7 cubs from the Hammercop Pride.....The Notch Coalition is Taking Mara by storm....The question is...WILL they be able to hold on to 7 Prides?"

Now as much as I love the 'Notches' these boys it would appear are causing absolute havoc out in the Mara by killing numerous different prides cubs this is not good for the future of lions in the Mara

**Laikipia** Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:10 pm

Oh dear, that is sad news, I agree with you Doogs. Notch and his boys are magnificent, but this is not good news.

Lai

**whitestarling** Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:19 pm

I have been concerned for some time, that at the rate Notch, and the Boys are taking over Prides they are damaging the future of the Lion population, not are they taking over Prides, and killing Cubs, they are mating, and not stopping around to protect there own. Also after a Pride takeover Lioness's do not tend to conceive in their first estrus, they seem to wait untill they are satisfied that the Males are going to stay around, and it's going to be safe for Cubs to survive, this will also reduce the number of Lion Cubs being born, and to survive
WS

**Doogs** Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:00 pm

From Simon Chebon via FB

"Joy is back with four of her offsprings, the adopted one didn't probably make it. Crying or Very sad

All in all Joy is a tough girl, I really respect her. She was at Topi Plains and Notches Paradise Pride were also there, I thought they would pick up a fight but they didn't ..."

**Laikipia** Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:45 pm

to read that her adopted cub didnt survive, we saw the 5 of them together in September and it seemed all would work out well in the end, but as we know life is very harsh out there.

Thanks for the update Doogs.

Lai Pai

Anne-Marie1981 Wed Feb 08, 2012 3:25 pm

So sad the adopted one hasn't made it Sad

I thought it would. They all seemed to be doing so well. Glad to hear Joy is back in the reserve now! She's a remarkable cat!

**Doogs** Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:09 pm

Photo of Joy and a couple of the cubs which was posted by Onesmus Ole Irungu on FB. Apparently they are 3 boys and 1 girls I love you

**whitestarling** Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:53 pm

Thats sad about the adopted Cub, but Joy did her best, and for that she's a Like a Star @ heaven

. Great pics of the Cubs they are looking well. Thanks Doogs
WS

**Laikipia** Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:02 pm

Great photo - I love the look of concentration.

Thanks Doogs.

Lai

RMorr50912 Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:49 pm

I agree Lai, they certainly look like they're interested in something!

Nice find Doogs.

Ronnie

**Doogs** Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:32 pm

They definitely look on a mission !

**Doogs** Fri Feb 10, 2012 5:21 pm

Some interesting thoughts / views from a couple of regulars on FB (Rich Smith & Peter Rettig) re Notch and his buddies :-

RS: Are the Notches finally splitting up, or joining into a smaller stronger coalition.

I think some would have guessed, or hoped really, the Notches would split up into smaller coalitions. 2 groups of 3, or better 3 groups of 2. Since Long left a while back to settle down with a pride, Grim and Notch seemed to develop a strong bond, while the other 3 Notches were always together and to me it looked like they turned into the real driving force of the coalition. For a while now, or so it seems Notch has been finally slowing down and has been seen on his own more often. It was rare to see a picture of Notch without Grimace right by his side or nearby in the past few years. Now more so lately Grimace seems to be with the other 3 Notches gaining even more power as they continue to push onwards. There is no doubting the last 4 years The Notches have taken a lot of prides and sired a lot of cubs, too many prides. As soon as all the lionesses are mothers or pregnant, they move on to take another pride leaving the past pride to fend for themselves. For some prides, they return to chase off any new males that killed little Notches and sired their own cubs, creating a cycle. Even at times they returned and didn’t seem to recognise their own offspring, and start the cycle themselves.

You can hardly blame any lion for doing what’s best for themselves, male or female. For a male to be part of a large coalition the advantage is obvious, power and safety in numbers, access to more females, very capable of taking large prey and feeding themselves. They can pretty much do and take whatever they want . . . it's good for them, bad for the lionesses they leave behind, and the next lions in their path.

Whats next is always hard to guess, especially now for Notch. Will he try to catch up with the younger boys, or stay and risk new males coming in? If the rest of the Notches don't come back, new males WILL be coming. Some are probably already aware of their absence.

I don't think we will ever see a complete split. It does seem the 3 will always be together. The interesting thing is they are now accepting Grimace into the fold. It wasn't like that in the beginning. Notch was the first to accept Grimace and I think because Notch was very much in charge, the rest didn't have as much of a say which could be why the 3 stuck together like glue. Long's story is very interesting in that he decided to go it alone, he seems to be doing pretty well solo..

The Mapogos are different in that they are closer in age to M, Notch is about 5 years older, while M is only 3yrs older and he seems to still hold onto the power longer probably because of this. I have no idea if the Notches ever killed any lionesses of even any males, indirectly, definitely in collateral damage.

PR: A lot depends on the relationship between the males within a coalition. Meaning who are brothers and who are just pride mates. That often defines who is sticking together in the longer run.

Take the Mapogos as an example. 6 male lions with quite different relationships. They were 2 sets of brothers, Kinky Tail & Mr.T and Rasta & Pretty Boy (called the Twins). As mentioned already, Makulu was not only the oldest of the gang but also unrelated to all of them. As he was the oldest he took over the leadership esp. in the early years of the coalition. The 6th male was Dreadlock, a pride mate of the 2 sets of brothers. Kinky and Mr.T always stayed together and splitted from the rest at some point. The Twins always sticked together but stayed with Makulu, hence during the time Makulu acted as a pride male for one specific pride, the Twins spent most of their time with another one. Dreadlock always seemed to seek company of Makulu, but for some reason he was not that welcomed to stay with Makulu while he protected his cubs and so Dreadlock joined the Twins on many occasions. Albeit all 6 never lost relationship completely and joined up every now and then.

It might well be that 3 of the Notches are in fact brothers, while Grimace and Long are both just pride mates. This would most likely mean that those 3 will always stick together. This may also mean they chase off Grimace again at some point.

**whitestarling** Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:34 pm

Thats really interesting Doogs, and confirms what I've been saying on different sites as well as here. That the Notch Boys by all their takeovers, and moving on without providing the security of the pride has affected the number of Lion Cubs, that are being born, and surviving. Cubs are being killed off in all the takeovers, and even in some cases by their own farthers. Lionesss are not conceiving as much due to all the turmoil, and I think thats why the number of Lion Cubs are down
WS

**Laikipia** Fri Feb 10, 2012 6:58 pm

Thanks for that Doogs. Definitely some interesting thoughts and an interesting read.

Lai

RMorr50912 Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:12 pm

Thanks Doogs, Good find. I'm pretty new to the FB thing, I actually only recently signed up so I could see some pictures on Jackson's page. I've since been keeping up with BIGCATFANZ group and there is some very interesting conversations from some very well informed people. I think the two you've quoted have some interesting ideas and I agree WS that The Notches seem to have gotten to powerful for their own good. Hopefully they will splinter into more normal sized coalitions and settle down a bit, for the good of the lion population in The Mara. I can't imagine the Mara without The Marsh Pride lineage as we all know and love so much, but that seems to be the direction things might go if the males don't settle down and protect the cubs. Let's all keep our fingers crossed the cub situation improves.

Ronnie

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